Investing in You

The most important way to build wealth is to invest into yourself, to grow your income and then invest. Join us as we unpack how many business owners and entrepreneurs invest in themselves, followed by an analysis of what to invest in and when. Stefan Angelini is joined by Kyle Traynor, host of Start-Up Diaries Podcast to assist in the conversation

Stefan Angelini Hey, everyone. Welcome to the podcast Real Wealth Podcast. I'm Stefan Angelini, I'm the host. I run financial planning business named Angel Advisory. But we're here talking about what's the biggest investment anyone starting off on their investment journey can make. And I guess the reason I'm going into this is because a lot of people come to me and ask, what do I invest into? When do I start investing? And it's really that when do I start investing piece that's crucial to building your wealth. And we look at business, like people that just work professionally for someone, they might be at a law firm or the majority of people, they earn a wage. And the faster you increase your wage, the more possible income you're going to have to go and purchase assets. For business owners, which is the reason we're here, it's a little bit different, which is why we got Kyle on the show. Now, Kyle, before I introduce you, I want to tell everyone out there, because I run a financial planning business, I need to put a disclaimer in. So just your information. This is just general information only. If you got any questions, please go and speak to a financial advisor. This isn't advice just for you, just general information. So, mate in saying that you run an amazing podcast, so you run Start-up Diaries launch over to you. Can you tell me what it is, who it is you interview and basically what sort, who these people are? Kyle Traynor Yeah. So we interview with Start-up Diaries, business leaders, entrepreneurs, founders, and basically share their stories and all the valuable lessons that they've learned along the way. So that's the elevator pitch. The real version of it is we interview people that have had success in their business, maybe they've had success in a business, they may not own it, but they may be in a leadership position there. And we really just try to unpack what success is to them and the lessons that they've learned along their journey, which could be around their own mental health, it could be around their wealth building journey, it could be how they've built their business. Like as an example, we've interviewed Elle Roseby, the managing director at Country Road. And so her journey started in a junior position 30 years ago, working up through a company. And what are the lessons that she learnt throughout that journey? And that can be everything from how did you accept some of these larger roles in the early days when you hadn't been in them before? Or we've interviewed Sabri Suby, who has grown one of the fastest growing marketing agencies in Australia, and for him, it's about, how did you build this and more importantly, how did you do it quickly? So over the journey, it's morphed. It obviously wasn't what it was in the early days, but we've kind of found a groove now and a lot of these people are very successful, they're very confident, but it's also good to sit them down and maybe open them up a little bit and discuss things that maybe they haven't discussed before. So really just unpacking their journey and more so some of their philosophies as well. Stefan Angelini Journey is a super important one. And you hear a lot of the stories around people that have become very successful in running a business. And it's always the story of I worked in the garage or worked in my bedroom for so long before I started building up revenue and then I could start to go out and do different things. And I guess that's super important that they took every spare dollar they had to pump it back into the business because that's the easiest way to make it grow. Right? But the lessons from those startups is money is super important in the business. The less you pay yourself, the more you can reinvest and therefore the bigger and faster you can make your business grow. Kyle Traynor Yeah, it's interesting. Like a lot of the people that I've interviewed, Fabre, actually mentioned this, you know, and he said that for the first three, four years, him and his wife were living on peanuts. They left all the money in the business. And it's funny that we just mentioned that he had one of the fastest growing marketing agencies in Australia, I think it was two years running. And so I think there's a great lesson there, which is and it's something I'm actually doing at the moment in my business from having all these conversations. It's great. Like, I get to learn on the fly with all of this. But I think a lot of the conversations that I have with people is around, especially in the early days, you have to keep the money in the business. And the reason you have to keep the money in the business is because if you don't, you don't have capital to invest in people. And if you don't have people, the business won't grow. So if you think about growing a business from, say, 0 to $1 million, a lot of that is just doing the same thing over and over again really well. And then more importantly, being able to market and bring more inquiries in the door. So if you can bring in inquiries and then you can do the service really well at scale, that will more than likely get you to that seven figure mark. And then beyond that is, again, reinvestment of capital. So it's definitely a really good question because I think predominantly what it comes down to as well is life position. I think that's something that's really important. Stefan Angelini If you've got kids and you're trying to start a business and you need to make money, it's tough to keep reinvesting back into the business. Kyle Traynor Yeah. Stefan Angelini You can't expect to grow as fast unless you're an idiot like I am, sold an asset, put a lot of money of that into the business and don't pay yourself for three years. But I'm grateful I've done that because now I'm three years on my journey. I've got a great team around me. There's seven of us, great long term projections. My wife turned to me, we've got two kids now. She goes, when are we going to have money to spend? And I go eventually. Eventually. Down the track, yeah. Kyle Traynor And I think it's important that's one of the biggest things, I think, is like understanding the relationship between, say, investing into your business and then having money to spend as well. Like, it does take a long term time horizon, but if you can understand that relationship, I think you can start to understand when you can pull money out, when you have to reinvest. And more importantly, I think structure is really important. So the way you structure your company can determine that as well. It's not necessarily just about reinvesting everything. Like, if you have good structure in your company in terms of margins and you really plan this out, you can actually probably plan when you can start taking that money out. You can project as far as two to three years into the future and start to understand when you can take that money out, which is something that in the early days, I had no idea how to do. Now I'm lucky I do. And you can kind of start to really plan ahead, which is something that I think all business owners benefit from. Stefan Angelini That business planning aspect is the best thing. And even just tracking your projections as to where you should be, look, we get a lot of people that come to us and start saying, I want to start investing into property. All right, what's your plan with the business? Where are you with your goals? When are you going to start getting your ideal level of profit so you can start making those repayments to the bank and not leave yourself financially strapped? Because as soon as you start extracting more cash from the business, it's going to hamper its growth. Right? So being at that comfort level as well, to go off into these new assets is super important. But you're like, right, life stage, where am I at? What are my expenses outside of the business super important? Kyle Traynor I guess the question that I would have for you, which would be I would imagine a big part of what you do is goal setting with people. And I know I've done sessions with financial advisers before, and it's been really helpful, but understanding how to set goals for yourself personally, and then more importantly, how a business can help you fulfill those goals. Because I think I know one of the things in the early days is the mentality of having to re-invest into your business often can just be a voice that you've heard from somebody else, and it might not be something that you want. So I think I'd love for you to maybe potentially touch on what that goal setting process looks like and more importantly, what role does it play into that future investment, because it might not be something that a lot of people want. Like, I know I've had a lot of conversations with people, where maybe you don't want the big business, maybe you don't want the juggernaut. Maybe you do just, you're at a point in your life where you do want to just kind of extract value and more importantly, start to set up your life in a certain way. Stefan Angelini Yeah, well, I think so many people don't want the juggernaut because I don't want the stress that comes with it, because you got more money, more problems, more people, more problems. The more staff you've got, the more issues you're going to have. So where it all starts with on the goal setting is what's the business vision? Where do you want to take it, what do you want to do with it? But you need to have your personal goals because that personal goals and how big do you want to get and become, or what do you want to own? Do you want to own your own house? Do you want to go on regular holidays? You structure your business so you can achieve those personal goals. But a lot of the times is that when you're building this business to be the way you want it to be, you sort of lose track of that sometimes. And to bring yourself back to Earth to say, all right, we're doing this for this purpose. And I guess a lot of the reason people continue to, and we say invest into the business to get that making more money. So you've got more profit, more profit. You can plan with on what to do once your business is making more profit, then you can go out and you can go on an extended holiday, you can spend more time away or eventually you can diversify your assets and use those assets to pay you while your business is running itself. So it comes down to a real personal situation. So what do you want to achieve that's what that goes into the short term, medium term, long term, what I want to be at the end of the day? Kyle Traynor Yeah, a 100%. And I think even something that's been helping me and I would say the last 24 months, which something I probably didn't do in my earlier days, was more going. I was always business, business, business. All right, so I'd be like, just work on the business, the rest will take care of itself. And probably, I would say 24 months ago, I started to have conversations with different people, but I think starting to actually plan what's going on outside of your business and what do you want there? How do you spend your money outside of your business and setting goals outside of your business? What do you actually want to achieve outside of your business? Is something that has helped me inside my business as well, because I think one thing that I think we can be very poor at is or two things. There's perception of time. Humans suck at perceiving time, right? So two years, if you're not planning what's going on outside of your business and you're only focusing on what's going inside of your business, two years will pass. You like that. And some the, I guess some of the problems or some of the things that you want to achieve outside of your business more than likely aren't happening because you're not focusing on it. And then the second thing is we can be really, really poor with managing the things outside of our business because we identify as, say, an entrepreneur or as a business person. And so I think definitely as I've gotten older, I've realized that there is just a massive importance of looking after everything outside of my business. And that mentality started to shift for me. Definitely. Stefan Angelini No longer put your head in the sand when it comes time to think about Kyle Traynor Yeah. Exactly. Stefan Angelini What's happening outside of this room? It's a big thing. We see that so many people come to us and they're just saying, my personal finances are in shambles. I've never looked at it. I've never paid a credit card bill. It just sort of builds up. But the business, business is squeaky clean. It's perfect. You're right. One of those two in unison is what will make you ultimately successful in both avenues. The goal setting part of it is the personal goal setting. When you've got other people involved in the journey, being a partner, kids, it means you need to get other people involved in the journey so everyone's on board with what you're doing and what you're trying to strive for. So you're all in the same direction. Look at my wife and always bring it back to we have our own personal sessions. We have our money meetings, which she never wants to come to. Call them Saving Sundays, Money Mondays or Tight Tuesdays, whatever we wanted to call it. But we always come back to our goals. Where do we want to be? What sort of area do you want to live in? What house? Do you want to go on regular holidays? And now were planning a trip to Europe, and I'm like, all right, well, I've got to make sure the business is taken care of when I do go away. But it takes a little while to keep investing to get to that point. And that's where you start looking at, I guess, as a business grows, you get become less reliant on the founder. Now you can be the kind of person that is solely you are the person you call these like your normal consulting businesses, right? People rely on you to give the advice and that means you always have to be there, but it means you can't do things like going holidays and that's where it comes into reinvesting into the business, to build the team, the culture, the offering. With some of the entrepreneurs that you've, I guess, spoken to, what do they value most out of, I guess, their workplace and their team as they start to grow? So what are they more invest into as time grows? Is it marketing? Is it the team? Is it culture? Is it office space, warehouse space? Kyle Traynor I would say as the business grows, what I have noticed and a lot of the I guess the key lessons that I've pulled out of the conversations that I've had is that they actually invest in themselves as a leader. So it's not necessarily like the investment obviously has from a strategic point of view. And I think the difference is in the early days you have to market really well. You have to overinvest in that area of the business. You have to refine your product or your service to make sure that it's super tight, it's delivering on a need. But then as time goes by, you have to go through a mental shift. And it's interesting because we're building an agency from the ground up right now. So in the early days and I've actually gone into this business a little bit differently and I've actually positioned myself a little bit differently as a founder and I've positioned myself in sales, not in product delivery. And I've done it for that reason that you just mentioned is because it will probably allow me to step out a lot earlier than bringing someone in from a sales perspective is going to be a lot easier than bringing someone in who delivers the product all the time. Stefan Angelini Yeap. Kyle Traynor And so it's still going to be a challenge. But for me, I'm building a business and my previous businesses where I was the product. It's so hard to get out of that I find. But in this current business, it's interesting having the knowledge that I've been able to accumulate from interviewing some of Australia's most successful business leaders and entrepreneurs. I'm taking those lessons and building my business in a certain way now that will give me a lot more freedom a lot earlier. Stefan Angelini Yeap. Kyle Traynor And so it's even to the point where, at the moment, I'm not paying myself a wage out of that business purely for that for that work, which is interesting, but accounting for that meaning, I can bring someone in a lot earlier and then can either position myself in a more of a leadership role from the get go or can maybe step away and focusing on some other areas and let that business grow on its own with the people that I do bring in eventually. So I would say that that's been the mindset shift is that you're in the early days, you have to just hustle and grind. But then as you get further and further into business, I find that what I've learned the most from these people is that to really grow a business you just have to be a great leader and so the investment side of it might be an investment in yourself. So consultants, coaches, mentors, these kind of things. I find that that's what a lot of these successful entrepreneurs have done is they've gotten to a point where the business is demanding more from them as a leader and so the investment is less about say, the marketing and the sales and it becomes more about the people and the culture. And so whether that's an investment in yourself or whether that's an investment in infrastructure and programs to create a better environment for the team or a better working culture, that's probably been the biggest lesson, is like you're speaking to people that have already done it. Stefan Angelini Yeah. Kyle Traynor Right? So they can talk about the early days and they can tell you what got their business off the ground. But when you talk about what they're doing now, that's where their investments are. Stefan Angelini I think you start to realize over time is that it's a lot harder to find and keep good people than it is to find new business once you've got your service offering down path. Kyle Traynor Yeah. Stefan Angelini Which is why that becomes so, I guess, so important as time goes on. So you look at that, the leader sort of changes direction, becomes of the owner becomes a leader, which is super important. But you spoke about freedom and freedom is a great thing because we focus on financial freedom and I guess we're the Real Wealth Podcast. We've got to talk about what do you invest into outside of your business and when is the right time? When it's the right time to start pulling money out of business, to start growing your own wealth? We look at, why do you want to start growing your wealth outside of your business when you got your main bread winner? It's been bringing in the money for so long. We want to focus on well, at the end of the day you want to work less in the business. You're passionate about it, but really if you look down the track, hopefully you've got assets working for you and a lot of them so you're diversified so that way you can step out of the business and not rely on that to continue to pay you in case something goes wrong. You can start to diversify away from a lot of different things. So you can just put money in cash, you can put money in things like term deposits. We have really good access to these credit products that pay a really good income return because as a business owner you really never know when you're going to need money again because businesses go through ebbs and flows, right? Very rare to find a business that's just always an upward trajectory and they are amazing businesses to be, by the way. But you do face issues. As a business owner, have you got any experiences, I guess, in your dealings with people where you wish you've seen someone that would have just put money to the side when things were going really well? Kyle Traynor Yeah, I think definitely like the conversations I've had, even just with my previous experience in another career. But I would say like, definitely, it's what you don't know that gets you, if that makes sense. Even myself in the early days and in my previous business was definitely wish I had, I guess, started investing a lot earlier. It's just not something I didn't come from a family where that was a focus at all. Right? So Mom was a single mom, like, raised me and my sister from a young age. We just never got taught any of that. She works 07:00 a.m. till 07:00 p.m.. Stefan Angelini Yeah. Kyle Traynor And so for me, I moved out of home at 18, started a business, and I've had a business ever since I was 18. Yeah. So I've never really had a job, which is wild when you think about it, right, but there's also lessons that you don't learn from that. Even just on my personal on a personal level, for me, it was like, I wish I started investing earlier because it's not even necessarily just about the wealth you build, it's about the skills and the knowledge that you get around money that I think is the biggest learning over time is that if you don't come from a family who teaches you that stuff, you're going and I wasn't living at home, right? So from day one, I was running a business and I had bills to pay, I had all this stuff and I learnt the hard way. Stefan Angelini Yeah. Kyle Traynor For probably a good four or five years. Stefan Angelini Yeap. Kyle Traynor And then just through conversations that you have, and you start to kind of have these experiences where you're like, okay, and as you get a little bit older, you go, okay, I think this is what you do, right? And so on. But I think definitely on a personal level, yes, a 100%. Even people that I've spoken to and the conversations we're having, I think once you start to think about the generation after you, right, so at some point, kids is going to be a conversation. Whether you do or don't have them, you get a partner and you start to evolve in life. And I think once you start to hit that stage, then it definitely becomes a conversation that you start to think about because it's very easy to look after yourself. For me, it took me a few years, but we've eventually got there. But I guess I want to throw a question back to you, is investment is not my main skill set building business, but how do you know what the right investment vehicle is for you, depending on where you are at in your life? So obviously there's things such as stocks, ETF, there's property, you can start developing properties. There's so many different avenues that you can go down. That's a question that I've always asked and pondered on, is like, depending on where I'm at, what is the best investment vehicle for me? I'd love for you to touch on that. Stefan Angelini I'll touch on all the asset classes and just quickly. So having cash available is super important when you realize that you may be going to need it at one point, especially if you've got people that are relying on you, family members that are relying on you, or staff that are relying on you, and just the business operations that need that cash. We're where you are a growing business, you may need more access to cash. So we say, well, why not have it in something that's not going to be volatile? I want to say a volatile go up and down. So say you got $100,000. You don't want that $100,000 to become $80,000, because you know you may be going to need it at some point in the next few months or next few years. So you have that investment in something that's making a little bit more money than cash reserves might, and therefore it's making your 4 to 6% income, but at least it's bringing in something extra through the door. Right? So we're making extra money by doing nothing. Kyle Traynor So it going to be safe as well. Stefan Angelini Safe. That's why we say, So no capital volatility? Yeah, because when you look at investing into things like stocks, shares, ETFs, they go up and down. If you've been invested into ETFs and the S&P 500, sure, it's gone up five times in the last ten years, but in the last one year, it's come off 30%. So if you were saying, well, I'm going to put a lot of my savings into that when I know I'm going to need them, your 100 grand just become 70 and you don't want that. But when you get to a point where you realize this is operating really well, I'm confident with my cash flow that's coming through, I'm happy to take some risk with my money to try and make it grow. That's when we say, especially for business owners, maybe it's time to start looking at stocks. And when we talk about stocks, ETFs fall into that world. So you can have ETFs, managed funds, or even just individual stocks. The reason we like these things is because they're liquid. Liquid means if you need the money, for whatever reason, you can sell them down. And we don't say we ever do. But things change as you know, business needs money sometimes you might have a really bad month or two, so you need to be able to grab cash really quickly. But a lot of people, especially in Australia, get drawn towards a whole property story. So everyone wants residential property, but in order to do that, you either need to put a big heap of cash into it or borrow a lot of money for it. Now, as business owners, having a lot of debt is scary sometimes because you don't know what the future is going to hold. But having a lot of cash locked up into an asset that we call illiquid, which means you can't sell it so quickly, is scary. So until you get to a point where you're more established and you're more confident on the income stream that's coming through, that's when we say, all right, let's go and take on some debt, let's go and purchase a larger asset. And then when you get to that next stage, when you've got businesses operating efficiently, good team, there really good cash flow, really good cash reserves, that's when you start going, right, how can I get more creative with my money? Should I be investing into other businesses, which is a bit more risky? Should I be going into things like property development to try and make more money on my money? And then as your wealth starts to build, over time, you realize your portfolio starts to stretch and grow and have a whole lot of things within it. Because you realize over time, it's better to have an investment in five businesses than one. Because if one goes belly up, I've got four others that are there, and therefore, I'd rather have different properties, different share portfolios, so that everything, my wealth isn't just locked into one asset. Kyle Traynor How do you fight so you said at the old property story or the stock, that ten X? Because I think a lot of when you don't have the knowledge in this area and the access, sometimes it's like you can just get sucked into reading articles or seeing a TikTok snippet of how someone made a bazillion dollars in 3 days with this property flipping Stefan Angelini Yeah Kyle Traynor Cheat sheet or whatever it is, right? Because I think that's the hardest thing. And then you've got things like crypto at the moment, which over the last 3 years or 2 years was going crazy in terms of making people a lot of money, but it also would have lost for people a lot of money as well. Because I think that's the hardest thing is if you haven't got advice from somebody who does have the skills and the knowledge and has invested in themselves from a career perspective, you are left with these kind of devices of say, TikTok Instagram articles and so on. So how do you fight that FOMO like potentially spending 80% of your capital on a house and then being left with a little bit or over investing into some volatile assets? Stefan Angelini Those influence, we call them, are becoming hugely problematic, to answer your question, I guess you look at your personal situation and you got to projected that into the future. Where do I want to be? Where are things going to be? How much confidence do I have in myself? It's going to help you make those decisions shortly. If you're a boring person and you don't want to lose money because you've worked so hard to get it, then you normally don't get into those get rich quick, quick things. Like you'll find us like we are as boring as they come because we're like so as advisors we won't get into the new industries, we won't get into crypto because it hasn't had a long enough tail run for us to go great, we understand this industry. So we just sort of stay away and everyone's like, oh, you got to get in, you got to get on the, on the hype it's, you know, this is going to a million dollars a bitcoin and we just go well we don't know enough about it so we can't pass judgment on it. And all the startups like as advisors we missed out on back in 1999 a lot of the when tech was starting to become around of websites. A lot of advisers didn't get into it as quickly as retail investors did because it was still such a new industry and the numbers didn't make sense because businesses weren't making profit but were trading on really large multiples. And then .com crash happened. And then more recently what's happened more recently? There was a big push into buy now pay later coming out of Covid So during Covid all these buy now pay later schemes sort of started running and as advisors you look at these new companies, new industries, not profitable and you sort you get scared away. So it's about having, I guess the initiative and the ability to say no, I'm not going to get on this because I don't want to take on that much risk. These are the risk parameters that I want to take on. Kyle Traynor That's the word, right? So I was having a conversation with a mentor of mine the other day and we were talking about brand. I can talk about this in a business sense, but we relate back to wealth and investing. But we were talking about and I was kind of having a conversation about what he potentially could do with his business and why doesn't he get into more content and do more content. I'm a content guy so I'm like make content. This I'm like we've got to get into. You should be doing more. And he's my mentor but we're having a bit of a laugh. And he said to me, he goes, the thing is about brand is it takes 10 years to build and it can take 1 second to lose. And he goes, more importantly, brand is not just about building trust with everybody. It's about who do you want to build trust with? And so he was kind of making his point around potentially some of his clients don't want to see content and if they do see content, he's talking about really, really wealthy individuals want privacy, right? They don't want to be on the internet. Stefan Angelini Yeah. Kyle Traynor And he said they're the guys who pay the bills. Right? And so for him, he's like, okay, so if I want to attract those people in and I create content the people I can create content with, they're not going to be those guys. But if that's who I'm creating content with, it can relay back. And I think they're the idea is that there are like again, probably another human deficiency or floor is we struggle to see the downside. Stefan Angelini Yeah. Kyle Traynor Right? And I think so that was a really key lesson for me was like, okay, I get it now. So it's not about not creating content. It's about what content can you create that doesn't just give you upside but actually mitigates the downside. Stefan Angelini

Yeah. Kyle Traynor And I think that's what you're saying from an investing perspective this is like, yeah, you can see all this upside and say some of these volatile assets, but there's also downside potentially that you need to take in which I would assume the everyday punter probably isn't that great at recognizing. Stefan Angelini You realize over time that you don't want to take punts because you've been burnt before. And building your wealth is like building your brand. It takes time. And you want to make sure once you've built it, you want to maintain it for as long as possible. And when you're younger, you take punts, right? You take puns, you lose money. It happens. And you realize, I don't want to do that again. I don't want to lose money. And you realize that it's just experience in life, in business, it all relates together. And that's why it's important to learn from experiences in business and in building your wealth and investing. If you're trying things and you're failing, you're learning and you're creating experiences because you never learn better than if you've done it yourself. You can read all the books in the world, but sometimes you just need to fail. Unfortunately. Kyle Traynor Yeah, this is the first business that I've probably built in a downturn. I've never experienced a downturn while investing at all. And I wouldn't say my experience investing is not much, but what I have been this is the first downturn. I think you're right when you say that. It's like two years ago, I was like, man, this is easy. Do you know what I mean? Stefan Angelini Yeah. Kyle Traynor But it was like, it was just a different time. Stefan Angelini Yeah. Kyle Traynor And I definitely think you're right. And I think that's the one thing I recognize is even just with business is that you can read about if you would have said 12 months ago that we would be where we are right now, 12 months ago we're still just coming out of the pandemic. Stefan Angelini Yeah, economic growth was good. Kyle Traynor Yeah. Stefan Angelini Business around businesses were flying. I guess everyone was employed, interest rates were low, everything was good, the world was gravy. And then it turns. And that's why we always say we talk to people about when they're starting that investment journey. Look at your asset allocation. So what do you need your money for? Because when you start investing it, you don't want to have to sell it. Because if things come down or you need money, you don't want to have to sell assets to get money back. So that asset allocation piece is hugely important. And then it comes back to that whole risk profile. We can talk all day, but I want to end it is the main reason. We say to people, why do you want to start diversifying? Because we want to get to that. The picture of owning a lot of businesses, being able to live the life we want to live. So really, as you would talk about with everyone you talk to understand your goals, your team's goals, where you want to be, and then I guess invest in yourself and whatever you need to do around it to give yourself the life you want to lead, right? Kyle Traynor Yeah, a 100%. I think understanding where you're at is probably my biggest lesson over the last two years, and more importantly, from interviewing people that are really successful as well, is that I think time is your greatest friend. And that was the lesson that I think you learn. Like, you just need to make fewer mistakes over time, both in business and I would assume that in wealth building as well, that it's just very much can you learn from your mistakes and make fewer of them as time goes by and let time do the work. Stefan Angelini No point rushing, right? No point rushing. Anyway man, I want to end it there. Thanks a lot. If anyone wants to find you, you run podcast, Start-up Diaries. Kyle Traynor Yeah. So the podcast is Start-up Diaries. We interview successful founders and business leaders and share all the valuable lessons they've learned along the way. That's the elevator pitch again, not off my heart now. And people of conversations. So a B2B podcast agency. We are new on the scene but looking to help businesses. And basically we think there's a collision happening between content and e-commerce at the moment and we want to exist at the intersection of it. So that's what we do. Stefan Angelini Man, real interesting stuff. Looking forward to follow your journey, mate. Thanks for coming on and we'll chat soon. Kyle Traynor Thanks for having me. Cheers.